Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice got to play with all the pretty ponies. This week, having drawn the short straw, I only get to play with one of the pretty ponies. Luckily, Sureblood is the prettiest of them all, and he likes to have his ears scritched. Additional fun fact: Microsoft Word doesn’t want me to use the word “scritched.” I WILL BREAK ITS SPIRIT.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 26: The Feather
Point of View: Adolin
Setting: The Shattered Plains
Symbology: Duelist, Kalak, Paliah
IN WHICH Adolin and his strike team assist other Highprinces on a plateau run; he and his friend Jakamav launch a daring assault on a multi-tiered rock formation; Friendship (and unbelievably powerful magical weapons and armor) prove more than a match for the enemy Parshendi; Eshonai delivers a message asking for parley; a gemheart is lost, but at least there’s wine; Renarin freezes up during combat; Adolin asks his good friend Jakamav for advice on dueling; Jakamav provides advice on dueling, also women; Adolin wonders whether it wouldn’t just be better to let himself get arranged married; Jakamav proves to be a Grade A tool who sucks and is bad; a horsey prances; Adoliin talks to Renarin, who says that A) he didn’t have a fit and B) they don’t have much time.
Quote of the Week:
“Being seen with you isn’t good for one’s reputation these days, Adolin,” Jakamav said. “Your father and the king aren’t particularly popular.”
“It will all blow over.”
“I’m sure it will,” Jakamav said, “So let’s . . . wait until then, shall we?”
Adolin blinked, the words hitting him harder than any blow on the battlefield. “Sure,” Adolin forced himself to say.
“Good man.” Jakamav actually had the audacity to smile at him and lift his cup of wine.
Adolin set aside his own cup untouched and stalked off.
YOU. UTTER. DICK. I. HOPE. YOU. GET. PARALYZED. IN. A. DUEL.
KILL HIM.
LIKE.
DEAD.
— A rant by Carl
Commentary: This chapter is mostly dominated by a pretty sweet combat sequence that, nevertheless, I don’t have a ton to say about. I very much enjoyed the construction of the battlefield. The Alethi and the Parshendi are fighting over a chrysalis on the top of a three-tiered mountain that’s been bisected, somehow. The epilogue to this chapter takes the opportunity to point out that it wasn’t their gods who shattered the Shattered Plains, which is a clue for the readers to not dismiss information about that shattering. Adolin, who doesn’t have the opportunity to read the epilogues because he is both illiterate and fictional, immediately puts aside his passing thought that the three-step pyramid which even seems to have ramps might not be naturally occurring. Way to go, Adolin! You’re lucky you’re so pretty and good at fight!
Adolin’s assault plan is both cool and cinematic, but doesn’t so much have success in mind as camaraderie. He wants to lure Jakamav into fighting alongside him, forming a bond of friendship that will eventually tie the armies together. He and Dalinar are looking for emotional connections to unite Alethkar that don’t rely on loyalty, since they know none of the Highprinces care about that. And having the Shardbearers fighting alongside each other has good optics, makes for pretty good bonding stories, and certainly makes it seem like cooperation is happening. Unfortunately, as you can see in the quote of the week, Jakamav is a heartless toolbag, and he’s one of Adolin’s better friends. Friendship among the Alethi of Adolin’s generation is far more about being seen to be in a popular faction than actually creating bonds on which one can rely.
I really feel for Adolin here. He didn’t understand how little his friendships meant, or how quickly they would evaporate once he made himself politically unpopular. It doesn’t seem like he’s met any non-dumpster humans in his years among the nobility. It’s not fair to say he has no friends, though. He has his brother and his horse, both of whom have his back. Sureblood is prancing all over the place, happy not to have to share his attention with the other horses from last chapter.
Maybe Adolin can be friends with Eshonai! She wants to talk, she has some pretty sick armor, and he can almost tell what gender she is. That’s like… a few reasons. (No, I’m not going to ship them, settle down. If you want to ship them I won’t stop you, but you’ll have to put in the work yourself. I’m too invested in Shalladolin and/or Kalolin.)
Heraldic Symbolism: Kalak and Paliah! Kalak (Resolute, Builder) may represent Adolin’s steadfast efforts to build a unity between the Highprinces. Paliah (Learned, Giving) is surely here because she’s the patron of the Truthwatchers, which, SPOILERS, Renarin is going to join.
Ars Arcanum: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think we know at this stage in the book why Renarin froze up in this combat. Those who are actually reading along for the first time at our incredibly glacial pace, SPOILERS FOLLOW: Renarin must have been paralyzed by the screaming of his spren when he summoned his Blade. Binding a Blade requires holding onto it for hours and hours and hours, which must have been torturous. Other hints we get that Renarin has magical shit going on: He’s constantly talking about the Stormwatch as if he has extra perception, and he magically doesn’t need glasses anymore. It confuses me why Adolin would think Renarin is acting tough by not wearing glasses, since I’m pretty sure Shardplate is totally glasses-friendly.
Just Sayin’: “There are a lot of winds to ride out there, you know?” So sayeth Jerkamav, hammer-wielder and all-around nice guy, in a saying that is directly analogous to “there are plenty of fish in the sea,” with an extra emphasis on riding. Maybe the Windrunners were major players back when?
Shipwatch: Adolin is so excited about his causal with Shallan that he might actually be warming to the idea. It warms my heart how a political marriage is exactly the spark these two crazy kids need to get together without ever even having met.
That’s it for this week! Next week we travel into Shallan’s past, which has always been a barrel of laughs before. I can think of no reason why Chapter 27 would be an exception to that uninterrupted stream of good time party times.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
I was predisposed to dislike Jackoff- er, I mean Jakamav- just because of his name, which always made me think of the South Park Jakovasaurs. It’s no surprise that one of Pretty Boy Jock Adolin’s elitist friends wouldn’t prove to be a true friend when the seas get rough.
I wish we’d had more direct experience with Adolin’s rocky past relationships, so far we’ve only seen him with 2 of his many attempted courtships (and one of them, Danlan, turned out to be a spy) and I think there could have been great potential for some humor if BWS had given us more details on how he attempted to court them. Oh well…
Here we get the biggest hint yet that Renarin has SOMETHING going on, something that affects his eyes and his mind, but like a true Kholin he refuses to talk to anyone about what’s going on, so we’re left in the dark for many, many more chapters.
Sniff….Sureblood. Poor, stalwart Sureblood… (runs off decidedly NOT crying).
You’ve gotta give Jakass a few points, sure he may not be willing to be seen in public with Adolin but he did at least give him some good advice.
He can keep those few points just so long as he does not do anything else that may be construed as dickish for the rest of the book.
Too perfect of an opening. Now to read the post.
Photo on my profile too.
Moderator note: fixed the pretty image! (Stefan)
Edit: Thanks Stefan!
In conclusion, people who put politics ahead of friendship suck. Which is also true in real life, making the interwebs full of suckage. But anyway … Adolin is much more grown up in WOR compared to the hot headed youth we had in WOK. Sure, he still has his impulsive moments, but he is doing a lot more thinking and planning and most important – communicating. He’s a much more enjoyable character this way. These last couple chapters especially have shown us glimpses of the Adolin we’d like to see.
Also – good job Moderator Stefan for fixing Braid_Tug’s photo. scritches
Well, I’m scritching my head wondering where the chapter title, The Feather, is going. And the only thing I come up with is maybe a reference to Adolin’s shardblade.
I remember really liking this chapter while at the same time coming to believe that Dalinar’s plans would never work out. Things just got worse, but this chapter and exchange made the subsequent duels that much better. I do so love those duels.
@5 Ways- I think the title comes from something Dalinar said way back in chapter 3. Speaking to Navani, he said, “Though the Stormfather knows, I’m less certain of my political acumen than Adolin is of his dueling. It is what must be. If Adolin is to be the stick, I must be the feather.”
To me, the use of stick and feather sounds like we would say carrot and stick. I’m not sure exactly what it means, but in that context, the feather is like the carrot offered to a donkey; in this chapter, it is Adolin trying to befriend Jakamav and work together, even if that’s really Dalinar’s job while Adolin is supposed to be the stick (punishing other highprinces by defeating their duelists and getting their shards).
I could be wrong, but that’s what I connected the title to.
MDNY
If Dalinar had appeared in this chapter, I’d buy the chapter 3 foreshadowing thing hook, line and sinker. Jakamass is influencing our thought processes greatly. Heh.
Any other theories?
Call me naive, but I think that now that Dalinar/Adolin have won their grudge match with Sadaes (by that I mean validated Dalinar’s actions in WoR), Jakamav will apologize to Adolin. Jakamav will admit that he was a jerk and should have not have thrown away friendship for a chance of political advancement. I beleive this because during the duel, Jakamav was almost afraid to look at Adolin. A sort of action that implies that Jakamav knew he should not be part of this duel.
I think Adolin is man enough to accept the apology. Although Adolin may tell Jakamav he has a long way to go before Adolin will fully trust Jakamav.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
@7 Perhaps people write with feathers on Roshar? It seems birds are less abundant on Roshar than here, though….
Edit: spelling
I’m a bit of a long time read, but don’t participate in this forum (isn’t there a name for this?) Anyways, I just got through the comments from the last couple of chapters and had a comment on one of the threads there. I hope that isn’t an issue.
I found it very interesting that 15 years pass between the 1st 5 book arc and the 2nd arc. There are a ton of possibilities of what could happen during those 15 years, but what intrigued me is the aging of our heroes.
Kaladin will most likely be somewhere between 35 and 40 (depending on how much time passes until the end of the 5th book). Dalinar will be getting up there in years, perhaps 60ish. And kids that are now younger than 5 will be prime hero age (20ish) for the 2nd book arc. So we ought to keep our eyes out for promising youth (like Spook in Mistborn) that could step up and become heroes in the 2nd arc books.
Have we seen any younger characters that could perhaps grow into the future leaders? The only one that comes to mind is Lift who will be approaching 30, and I’m pretty sure she will be a main character (isn’t one of the last 5 books about her?). Either way, if we meet a younger character in the next couple of books we shouldn’t discount him as a completely minor character.
I love this chapter, one of my favorite. Why? Because I do believe it is then I started heavily rooting for Adolin. Somehow, the “Do I have any true friends amongst my sea of acquantainces?” question truly caught a sensitive cord. Being rejected by one peers is something many people can identify with. The fact this rejection hurt Adolin “more than any blows on the battle field” does emphasis his main weakness: his heart. Pushing all you want on the battle field and he’ll stand strong, but attack the heart and you may gain some points.
Young Adolin is just finding the hardship of being an adult, a period of time where most relationships evolve from friendliness to political, especially for somehow highly placed such as he.
On another note, we now have inkling Renarin has spoken some oaths! Back in chapter 14, Renarin was unconfortable with his Blade, a feeling shared by Dalinar pre-oath. However, I do think he has spoken at least the first oath in between chapter 14 and 25 as he now seems to hear the scream. The Dalinar experiment towards the end, when he does not hear the screaming until he swore two oaths back to back, enhace the likelyhood of Renarin having spoken some oaths.
He goes away without his glasses implying he healed his vision. Was it unconscious or conscious use of stormlight? The only unconscious use of stormlight we have seen so far were to heal deadly life threatening wounds, not something as trivial as poor eyesight. Could Renarin be more advanced than we are lead to believe? I do think it a strong possibility.
Another interesting one I noted in this chapter: Adolin started training with the sword at the age of 6 while Zahel pointed out most kids started by the time they were 10. Was Adolin so gifted he was allowed to start training years before his time? Or was he just being very insistant? And why does Renarin state Adolin was “different”? Did he mean different from him or different from you average kid?
Much to think about.
Ways @8 – If you think of it in terms of context back in chapter 3, it makes more sense. Dueling (& winning the Blades and Plate) was the stick; the political connection and overtures of friendship and cooperation were to be the feather. In this case, (like MDNY @7) I think the “feather” is the act of presenting cooperation and mutual support as a good way to function. In the earlier conversation, that was “Dalinar’s job” but in a sense Adolin is here representing his father and his house in a spirit of cooperation.
But basically, it’s the carrot/stick thing with one different word. It’s the only thing that makes sense.
@11 Storm Brother- Welcome! In answer to your query, we held a vote recently and rechristened this reread the “Storm Cellar”. Feel free to bring wine, beer, chips, and chouta for our enjoyment anytime.
I wouldn’t say carrot and stick. It sounds more like rough and forceful (stick) vs gentle and persuasive.
Just my two cents.
@@@@@ Carl – the snark is strong with you. I really enjoy your sense of humour in these summaries.
@@@@@2 – This is the same Jakamav that teams up against Adolin in the 4v1 duel later on, so I think would count as a “dickish” move. No points for him!
@@@@@11 – The term for someone who reads/visits a forum without posting is a “lurker”, if that’s what you were asking about. As to the timing of the next books and people’s ages: Lift will definitely be a major character, as will Renarin. Characters that have been discussed for the flashback sequences in the last five books include Adolin, Jasnah, Navani, Taln, a second Kaladin book, and Lift (according to a quick search of the Theoryland database – take this with a grain of salt, as some of those interviews are four years old at this point).
One thing worth considering is the effect of Stormlight on people’s aging – Dalinar at 60 is going to be a lot more spry than most other 60-year-olds, due to Stormlight strengthening and healing, etc., and I believe the same will apply to the rest of our heroes.
It also stands to reason that if Shallan and Adolin proceed with their engagement, they could easily have a teenage kid by the time the back half of the series comes around.
@@@@@Wetlander/Alice – Just wanted to say thanks for transcribing the signing audio. Very neat information in there, and it is very much appreciated! You
rocknumuhukumakiaki’aialunmor!“Stick and feather” reminds me of “speak softly and carry a big stick”, as much as it does “carrot and stick”. Adolin and Dalinar are quietly trying to cajole people into joining them, but making it clear that there can be consequences if they don’t.
Plus, Dalinar reminds me a bit of Teddy Roosevelt, though admittedly that is partially because of the recent Roosevelt series on public TV. Dalinar, like TR is a mix of contradictions. Dalinar is a warlord, who is trying to unite a fractured nation, and preserve what he can. TR was probably the closest thing the US has had to warlord for a leader (possibly excepting the past 30 years), yet now one of the things he is best known for is the National Parks system.
I doubt that Brandon had TR in mind when writing Dalinar, but I like the parallels nonetheless.
@17 – I think you could make a decent argument that Washington, Grant, and Eisenhower were “warlords”, all three being very successful generals. Personality wise, however, TR might have been a bit more agressive. If that’s the measure then Andrew Jackson might also qualify. Just a thought. It’d be pretty hard to compare the Alethi leaders to the Presidents though, seeing as how the Alethi have the freedom to be much more honest than any politician trying to win an election here. Among other differences.
@11 – Welcome! And very good point. Definitely something to keep an eye out for.
@16 The current plan is for the back five to be, in no particular order, Taln, Lift, Renarin, Jasnah, and Shalash (as of the WoR tour last year).
Re: The Feather
I can see it pertaining to Eshonai offering an overture too, à la Wetlandernw’s comment.
Carl
Pretty sure it’s the “dead” spren’s screams a proto-Radiant hears when he touches a Shardblade (not his/her own spren’s).
A few things I wrote down while rereading this chapter:
–Another killer epigraph (Who broke these Plains then?)
–Why does Adolin think the bridgemen don’t want to fight Parshendi? (Probably not important, just seemed weird.)
–Adolin thinks something like this to himself: the Chasmfiend is not dead inside the chrysalis. (OK, I didn’t know that. Is it generally true? Probably not important either.)
–What’s the point of the Thrill? Is the Thrill only experienced by Shardbearers? (Presumably results in more Parshendi killed either way. Why would Odium/his immediate minions want more of their rank and file soldiers killed? Something doesn’t add up here. Maybe the Trill is not of Odium.)
@20 Re: the Thrill.
Perhaps Odium doesn’t care who wins (the Parshendi or the humans) as long as the maximal number of each die. So Odium would just love (in a hateful way) to see the humans almost obliterate the listeners in a war of attrition on the Shattered plains, and then have the listeners go all stormform and almost obliterate the humans. If possible, Odium would have the war carry on until there is only one of each party left, and have them kill each other.
?
Why does Adolin think the bridgemen don’t want to fight Parshendi?
Because when Kaladin accepted the bodyguard job his condition was that his men don’t need to fight Parshendi.
birgit @22
Right you are, forgot that.
What struck me as odd when first reading this chapter was – why didn’t Adolin have any friends in the Kholin faction? Sure, a lot of Kholin soldiers, including nobles, have been killed in Sadeas’s ambush, but Adolin isn’t mourning any dear friends and companions either… Strange.
Gepeto @12:
Yes, Renarin has clearly progressed to hearing screams from his blade. And how it must have frightened him and made him feel like an even greater failure is easy to imagine. Glys must be one of the less articulate spren, too, since he was unable to reassure Renarin enough to encourage him to come out until the very end, even when Dalinar was actively looking for incipient Radiants .
OTOH, Radiant evolution is not the same for different orders, so we can’t know how far Renarin is as a Truthwatcher.
Healing of his eyesight, and presumably seizures makes sense because Progression/Healing is one of his surges. So, he should be better at self-healing, even at the early stages, than Kaladin and Co. are/were.
Re: Adolin and sworsmanship – my impression was that _Zahel_ only took as pupils 10-year-olds and older, not that training normally starts so late. That wouldn’t make sense for a skill that is so vitally important for warrior aristocracy. iRL it started at 6-7 or so.
@24 Actually, I remember reading a quote recently where Adolin goes mad seeing Sadeas, naming in his head several dead soldiers, good soldiers and good friends, he precised. He also complained about the loss of his good men after the chasmfield hunt. He has been mourning. Of all characters, he has been the most affected by Sadeas’s betrayal and its clear from his POV the death of his soldiers weigth on him. I do not recall ever reading Dalinar expressing sadness or anger towards the useless death of his soldiers.
Adolin must have had a few friends, but nobody close as he must have ranked several dahn (nahn? can’t remember) above them. It is hard for a prince to truly befriend the regular soldier. Aprart fromt the average soldier, we have not seen many Kohlin nobles of Adolin’s age. All seemed to be older: general Kahl, Teleb, the king… As to the few new shardbearers, there is no way to tell. They were considered “worthy” lighteyes, so I assume they must have been older than twenty years of age. We havge not seen them in action either in the Plateau fight… Adolin had no other shardbearer with him, Moash was back in camp, Kahl was unaccounted for, Teleb was leading Roion’s men, where were the last two?
As for Glys… Syl herself was not able to explain the truth about Shardblade to Kaladin until the end of WoR. It is not so far-fetched to think Glys would not be able to do the same early on in WoR. Syl was not able to state Kaladin was a Windrunner until the end of WoK, early WoR. I do not think Glys is more inarticulate then Syl or Pattern were, but perhaps Renarin was less inclined to listen to him.
For myself, I am quite convinced the clues at end indicate Renarin has said, at the very least, the first oath in between chapter 14 and chapter 26. I strongly suspect he said another one later on and perhaps even a third one. Glys being able to explicitly tell him he was a Truthwatcher, indicates Renarin must has said more than the first oath as Syl needed more to be this articulate. However, it is possible different order, different reaction. On my side, I believe it is Renarin who has been holding back and not Glys.
Zahel stated he saw many 10-11 years old step into the ring of swordmasters, waiting to be chosen or this is how I interpreted it. Renarin’s comment to Adolin, stating he was different, can also be interpreted as Adolin having been taught this young was unusual. However, he could have also been saying Adolin was different than Renarin, which is an akward way to formulate things as Renarin is the one different when it comes to swordsmanship. I may also be reading too much into it.
Anyhow, based on conjuncture, we can deduced Zahel was not Adolin’s first master. He seemed to have tutored him at an older age, an age at which Adolin felt confident enough he felt he did not have much left to learn. Early teenage yearsm, I’d wager. I have been wondering as to how they became master and pupil, but I doubt we are going to learn much more.
I agree that the feather title of this chapter refers to the Dalinar/ Adolin attempt to gain allies by providing battle support. It appears to be related to a ‘feather in one’s cap’, denoting pride – presumably for winning battles. The attempt fails, although it provides the opportunity for a battlefield meeting with Eshonai before she transforms. At least Adolin has learned not to trust his erstwhile friends who will no longer be seen with him. Jacamav turns out to be a dangerous opportunist despite their battlefield comraderie. He will get his due reward when he is forced to yield his shardplate in the 4 vs 1 shardbearer duel when Kaladin threatens to shove his knife through Jacamav’s eye slit if he doesn’t. So, the arrogant Darkeye, Kaladin, risks his life in this very unequal duel, while the craven Lighteye, Jacamav is willing to maim or kill his erstwhile buddy in order to gain a shardblade. It’s almost enough to make Adolin agree with Kaladin about the trustworthiness of Lighteyes.
The chapter material involving Renarin is a good forshadowing of his potential. He has learned to use stormlight to cure his nearsightedness (or whatever his glasses were supposed to correct) and has the surgebinders reaction to the screams he hears when touching a dead shardblade spren. He is also focused on the days left to the Desolation and can now be considered the writer of those messages. His bonding with Glys, however, hasn’t progressed to the point where he understands the significance of those screams, nor can he yet convert Glys into a living spren shardblade.
It’s interesting to me that Renarin’s conclusion after saying that it wasn’t one of his “fits” was that he was a coward. I wonder if he somehow thought that the sword screaming in his head was his own subconscious being afraid and since he couldn’t overcome it it was his own fault. If Glys couldn’t explicitly tell him what was happening, then I can see that being an easy conclusion to draw.
I have the impression that Renarin just assumed everyone hears the screams, but no one talks about it – like the Thrill. It simply didn’t occur to him that it was not normal to hear your Blade scream, and until he gets far enough along in his bond with Glys, there’s no one to tell him otherwise. Well, there would be if he asked anyone… but there’s no one (at this point) to tell him what causes it, just that it’s not normal.
@28 He states at the end he thought it was only him… He thought it was in his head. I doubt he thought everyone heard the screams or else he would have talked about it, at least to his brother. Still, it is rather strange he would through such an ordeal without ever thinking of sharing with his family. That is a strange thought for me. I understand he would not want to publicize his failure, but his brother has never been anything else but supportive. Why not talk to him?
Renarin is used to being “the weak one” and prefers not to talk about it, is my impression. So whether he assumed everyone heard the screams, and he was the only one wimpy enough to be bothered by it, or whether he assumed the screaming was just an artifact of his own inadequacy, it was clearly not something that anyone else had ever mentioned. I can see where, with everything else that’s going on, he thought it would be better to just “man up” and not lay his own burdens on anyone else.
Yes, it’s a foolish thing to do, but it’s also very, very human. Renarin has always been physically weak – but mentally, he’s tough as nails. Always has been, I expect; it takes real strength of will and mind to stick with his role despite his illnesses, and he’s been doing it for twenty years or so. He’s not a whiner, and it seems to me that talking about this screaming might, from his perspective, be a form of whining.
(I’m almost glad he didn’t say anything; at this stage, there’s not a soul besides him who’s heard the scream of a dead Blade. Nobody else will hear it until Kaladin lastclaps Relis’s Blade in the 4-to-1 “duel” and they both hear it – and Relis runs off screaming. Even then, Kaladin doesn’t know what caused it; much later, he decides that it has something to do with his bond with Syl, and not until nearly the end of the book does he learn what it really is. If Renarin had asked about it any earlier than he did, it would simply have been confirmation of yet another thing “wrong” with him.)
“I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I.”
Completely irrelevant to the discussion here, but someone just posted this on 17th Shard, from the 1/5/15 Firefight early-release party:
I have to say, that was unexpected. So maybe Adolin is headed for Edgedancerhood instead… I’d sure love to see thing “thing” happen!
@carl. I can only agree with Jeremy about your humor. Your summary and comment were once again fun to read.
@12. Gapeto: poor eyesight isn’t “trivial”. “Blindly” groping for my glasses is the first thing I do every morning. I woudn’t want to spend a day without glasses or lenses …
Kaladin didn’t just heal grievous wounds, in WoK, even before he knew he was using stormlight he did heal scratches from arrows. IMO those were more “trivial” than poor eyesight. More interessting in light of the the fact that Kaladin’s tatoo didn’t stick, while the Shash-brand did, Renarin apparently doesn’t accept his poor eyesight as a feature that … defines him.
(I believe we discussed that healing has to do with how you see yourself in the cognitive realm (or maybe the spiritual, I don’t remeber).
@20 Ways: about Chasmfinds:
Later on in WoR Shallan comments that the Chasmfiends are in a pupal stage of their life cycle (likely before sexual maturity). She theorizes that the culling of these stages (killing them to take the gemhearts) might result in an extinction of the race.
@31. Wetlander: now I have to go look for the “vine” reference. I wonder if he has to be of the same Order as the “dead” spren of his sword to be able to revive it.
I don’t know that Adolin is a proto-Edgedancer. At least, he hasn’t shown any signs of using either the friction or progression surges – unless skill as a duelist implies a ‘dancing’ talent. On the other hand, Brandons’s answer implies that the shape of a shardblade is related to the order of the former Radiant possessor. If a deadspren blade can be revived and become bonded to the blade bearer, that should provide an avenue to form new Radiants. That prospect, in turn, should encourage us to review descriptions of shardblades and attempt to link those with the respective Radiant orders. I recall flamelike blades, corrugated edge blades, and straightedged ones. There are also various engravings on the blades. Happy hunting.
STBLST @33 – I don’t believe Adolin is a proto-Radiant of any Order… YET. We’ve had no indication from him of any particular spren hanging around, that I can recall. I’m speculating based on my own longing for Adolin to revive his blade and a couple of hints dropped by Brandon. It’s all wishful thinking at this stage.
That said, it would definitely be interesting to see if there are any other hints like this hidden in the text!
Well, just think. Shallan was wondering around updating the database of Shards before the end of the book. So the information is around to help them pair up the blades with any new proto-Radiants that show up of certain orders.
So maybe Brandon’s “thing” in @31 can happen in the future. Fingers crossed. Or at least they can figure out what type of spren the blade was to start.
Re: Adolin and grief. Some people are made depressed by it (cough Kaladin cough). Others are left with anger. I see Adolin as the anger type. He’s not going to dwell on losses, but will remain active.
Who knows, while it wasn’t said point blank in the text while he and Sadeas were fighting, maybe the stabbing was a -in part- driven by Adolin’s anger over the death of his friends and soldiers.
@31 I did such a happy dance when I saw that on 17th Shard earlier today. I’m not sure what I think about Adolin’s edgedancer potential…..I had him pegged as a releaser. So we’ll see what happens there if anything. I am curious though, because for anyone to be what we consider Proto-Radiant, they’ve already started bonding a spren….so them reviving a dead blade would then mean they’d have two spren? Seems problematic. But the alternative would be someone who hasn’t managed to attract a spren on their own, suddenly being able to get a blade……I’m very curious to see how he makes this make sense.
I definitely think Sadeas’ betrayal and complete lack of regard for human life had a role to play in Adolin murdering him. Especially since he basically just sat there and said he had no remorse and he was going to keep right on keeping on. I’d have stabbed him in the eye with a knife too.
I don’t think this has any bearing on Adolin’s potential. It just has to do with the pre-history of the blade itself.
The only thing that I would say would suggest Edgedancer, is the fact that Sadeas was progressing towards where he needed to be killed, and Adolin progressed him to that state. But even that is pretty weak as far as evidence goes.
Once again, we don’t know what the various Orders look for in their candidates. But in this case, we have even less idea what it looks like. Adolin would have to speak the Edgedance Oaths, plus the “something more” would have to happen… but would he have to do that with or without a spren bond? Would a bonded Edgedancer spren help him to bring his dead-spren-Blade back to life? or would “something” happen to bring that spren back to life to be his bonded spren? Or… something else?
The more Brandon hedges about that, the more it sounds like he wants us to understand it is really, really next to impossible, so it will be a grand reveal when our heroes really do pull it off.
OMG. I cannot say how excited about this last WoB from Brandon about Adolin. His Blade is an Edgedancer.
For those who cannot picture Adolin as an Edgedancer, think of Adolin’s most defining quality. Is it bravery? He is brave, no question there, but his bravery has always been triggered by the love he bears to his closed ones. Is it resolute? He is resolute, when it comes to protecting his family. Why does he kill Sadeas? Because he slaughtered his men, he tried to murder the father he loved and admitted he would never ever stop until he reached his goal. We could make a stretch and say Adolin murdered out of love.
Therefore, what is Adolin’s most defining quality? Could it be love? He loves and wants to be loved.
And how about the fact he has been carrying on him his mother’s necklace for years? It is part of is pre-dueling ritual… Could we link this to the Edgedancers’ first oath? Remember those who were forgotten… Well fitting for him to remember so fondly the mother his father forgot…
I have nothing to say about healing though.
However, there is an unrational part of me that wishes for Adolin to number amoungst the 10 major KR view-point Brandon has announced. If Adolin revives his Blade and becomes an Edgedancer, then he will play second fiddle to Lift.
@32: We do not know the extend of Renarin’s eyesight issues. His family noticed him walking around without glasses. If he were blind without it, wouldn’t they have voiced more concerned? As for trivial, I meant non live threatening. Other Radiants we have seen unconsciously heal themselves did it at a time where their life was at stakes.
@30: Great insight on Renarin. What you say makes perfect sense. Still, I wished he had shared more.
Gepeto @40 – So far it looks like a pattern, but Brandon has said that the flashback character and the Knights Radiant Order central to each book will not always match up.
So having flashback sequences from two members of the same Order isn’t impossible, and it doesn’t necessarily mean one of them will be second fiddle to the other.
Wetlandernw @31
I’m also wondering if Adolin has to be a proto-KR of the same Order as the “dead” spren of his sword to be able to revive it (or to free the trapped spren). Seems like something BWS might do, and perhaps that is the “something more would have to happen” part he mentioned. I can about envision Adolin as an Edgedancer.
And then there’s your @38.
travyl @32
I reread several chapters trying to find Shallan’s comment about chasmfiends being the pupal stage, because I want some clarification on this subject. Never did find it, and don’t have WoR on the Kindle to search. Ah, well. It’ll turn up when we get to it in this reread. Anyway, here is my foray into the subject at the WoR signing last year:
Now, to me, pupal stage means *something* (huge butterfly, dragon, whatever) is going to emerge from the chrysalis eventually. There should be some kind of adult stage if pupal stage is the term used in-book (I don’t believe BWS would use the term inaccurately). However, BWS said no, that’s not the case. And Peter pretty much said the same thing in a Tor rereader’s FB thread.
I totally buy the concept of massive-chasmfiend-in-chrysalis-kill-offs resulting in ecological consequences for Roshar, be it extinction of the race or something even more serious. But Brandon’s and Peter’s answers blow that thought right out of the water, don’t they? Or perhaps not. Maybe the gemheart or some other part of the dead ‘fiend (trapped inside the chrysalis in a decomposing mass of giant lobster goo until the time is right) is seed for the next generation of whatever turns into chasmfiends. Maybe the adult stage is something(s) small, not a huge butterfly. But even that seems farfetched in view of Brandon’s answer to my question.
The other problem with the WoB and WoP is that if they are telling the whole story, then it appears Shallan is not a reliable observer, and that just seems wrong. Right? I was chasing down her in-book comment for exact wording to have a go at resolving the conflict.
I ramble. Am I missing something obvious here?
Ways re: the pupating business… I’m no biologist, and it’s getting late here, so this might be worth less than the paper it’s written on, but isn’t the chasmfiend what comes OUT of the chrysalis? So it’s the final stage of development, and we just don’t see the previous stage? When Shallan asks, Adolin says he’s never seen a juvenile before it forms the chrysalis.
So the question (if it matters) is not what comes after the chasmfiend, but what comes before it.
Does that make any difference?
Ways,
of course Shallan is not as reliable as WoB / WoP, but Wet may have solved that problem for me (thanks wetlander).
The relevant scene is in chapter 49. (and here an excerpt:)
Yeah, Brandon is just saying that the chasmfiend, what we see, *is* the adult stage. We don’t know (or at least don’t know that we know) what the other stages look like or even are!
I believe that the conventional imagery of metamorphosis from, say, caterpillar to butterfly is not germane to Chasmfiend development from juveniles. While pupation and a chysalis is mentioned in the books, the adult form has no wings, it appears, rather, to be a larger form than the hitherto unseen juveniles. This would then be analagous to the case of incomplete metamorphosis which occurs in many insects who develop larger, rigid exoskeletons to replace the prior ones, as they grow.
Well, for what it’s worth, I am a biologist, although my specialty is mammals, not crustaceans. I originally read it as juveniles pupating, and there’s this in reference to the one that Elhokar hunts:
“The chasmfiend has been spotted by patrols here a good dozen times. He’s got his nest nearby, for certain—he’s not here to pupate. He’s too big for that, and he’s remained in the area too long.”
That seems to imply that past a certain size at least, they no longer pupate. As for us having seen a juvenile, there’s no description of it that I recall, but there is a Shallan notebook page of a Chull lifecycle, which seems to have two separate pupating stages and the juvenile looks different from the adult – quite similar in fact, to a juvenile crab of our own world. However, from that page, adult chulls have the capability to pupate, so by extension adult chasmfiends might as well, although I don’t fully understand why the adults would need to pupate, unless it’s their way of growing larger shells or something. None of the ones wandering around the plateaus are ever referred to as juveniles and they eat scouts and bridgemen, so there’s that. Shallan’s conversation with Adolin implies that she thinks they’re juvenile before they pupate, but she dosen’t necessarily know everything, so it’s hard to say for sure.
Still, chrysalises makes them kind of an interesting combination of crustacean and insect, since insects frequently do pupate in order to grow larger. As far as I know, while several of our crustaceans have various juvenile and larval forms, I don’t believe any of them make a chrysalis, they usually just moult or shed their old shells after growing new ones when they need to get bigger. But the vast majority of our crustaceans are aquatic, not terrestrial, so them living on land would require some adaptations. Reason #23403 that I love Brandon’s worldbuilding. It always winds up making sense, in its own way.
Oh Adolin, when you hurt, I hurt. Forget what JastesLekal – oops, sorry – Jakamav said. If you had someone with whom you could share your burdens, perhaps your temper wouldn’t blaze so hot… actually, I totally ship the threesome! Shallan’s denial issues, Adolin’s extremes of cheer and rage, topped off with Kaladin’s general grunty-surly depression… love it!! They are all actually so good for each other because they’ve each brought about some positive change in one another.
Side note: is anyone seeing Hermione in Shallan’s super-smart-scholar-let-me-look-that-up-in-my-notes? Ron in Adolin’s affable-but-not-quite-the-brightest-sphere-in-the-pouch-ness, and Harry in Kaladin’s mysterious-hero-with-angst? Some Neville in Renarin? Maybe a little Hagrid in Rock? Some McGonagall in Jasnah? No? Okay, I’ll stop.
@22 I think Kaladin was more concerned for his men’s PTSD in going back to the plateaus where so many of them died or came close to dying. There were more than willing to fight the Parshendi when they saved Adolin and Dalanar. He wanted them to get a break from cliff-duty is how I see it.
@41: This is amazing! I had never stumbled upon this particular WoB. Thank you for posting it. I have been wondering (antagonizing would be more like it) as to the working of flashback characters versus the features orders versus the 10 major KR viewpoints. I have truly happy to see the three do not need to match. I have honesly been worried Brandon would drop characters I strongly care about (like Adolin) in favor of characters I am currently not invested in (Heralds, Szeth, Eshonai). I know these fears are impossibly irrational, but I am glad to finally have an answer.
@48: You are right they are good for each others: one is in severe denial, one is an uncontrolable emotional wreck and the last one is a depressed grumbler. Yep. Quite the trio.
We can also get quite a bit of information without it being someone’s “flashback” book. Quite frankly, I don’t see needing to read much about Adolin’s younger years, especially if we are getting that timeframe from someone else (Dalinar, Renarin?). I’m sure we’ll get POV’s from him no matter who’s “book” it actually is.
@48 YES!!!! The threesome ship! I will totally join you on that one!
48. aaina
I know Brandon doesn’t care for the classic love triangle, but a threesome would be a surprising twist for all of us!
That said, I do see a budding Bromance (in the straightest sense possible) between Adolin and Kaladin. Between that and Kaladin’s honor, I expect it will be impossible for us to see a Kaladin/Shallan pairing, no matter how well they would do together.
Long-time lurker, occasional poster…
I totes ship Kaladin and Adolin (Kaldolin? Adoldin? Kalada?)
Is there room for one more in this here storm cellar? Can someone’s parshman get me a glass of violet wine, please?
@48 aaina, I like your analogies of the main 3 young characters in the Stormlight series with those in the Potter series. Shallan is the brightest of the 3, Harry is the bravest and is most burdened by his apparent destiny, while Ron is the most affable. I would add that Wit/Hoid can be viewed as comparable to Dumbledore in having a broad and true perspective of the situation, while encouraging and guiding the young people, Kaladin and Shallan, showing the most promise. However, you paint too gloomy a picture of the Sanderson trio. Shallan is overcoming her mind blanking defense mechanism. Kaladin may be perpetually serious due to the responsibilities that he has accepted and is overly self-critical. He is not generally depressed, however. Adolin’s rage has been manifested thus far only towards Sadeas, and it remains to be seen where Sadeas’ killing will take him and how that will effect his relationship with Shallan. They may continue their courtship, with Kaladin being a good friend of both, or Kaladin will evolve from being a close friend of Shallan to a romantic interest.
Sorry, I meant to write Hermione is the brightest of the 3 Potter series heroes – not Shallan. That confusion also indicates my association of Harry-Hermione with Kaladin-Shallan. I wonder, though, if the latter pair will evolve into the same fraternal type relationship that was chosen for Harry-Hermione – although the author later expressed regret at her choice of pairing off Hermione with Ron whom she clearly outclassed. Unless Adolin developes much deeper character traits, he will feel outclassed by Shallan both intellectually and in influence. Charm and an outgoing personality will carry one only so far. The killing of Sadeas has to change him, however.
Btw, I always picture in my head that chouta is like a burrito. Probably because I love burritos, and I can totally see the Lopen in a sombrero.
@49. pupxpert:
quote from chapter 73, Way of Kings:
The way I see it, for Kaladin, it’s mainly about not killing Parshendi.
Wetlandernw @31
Thanks for sharing that nugget. That was a good observation/question to ask Brandon (thanks 17th shard person). I don’t think that it forces Adolin to be destined for Edgedancerhoodnes, otherwise everyone with a blade would be limited to the order to which the original owner of their blades belonged. I could see an argument made for Adolin not gaining a bonded spren on his own and so determines to re-awaken the spren in his blade and then become an Edgedancer.
@41
Thank you for sharing this as well as I have been trying to understand how each book is about a single person of a different order. This would have forced Eshonai to become a Knight Radiant since there is a book about her. But since the book can show the flashbacks of a character and focus on an order of which that character is not a member than Eshonai is now free to not become a Knight Radiant. It may still happen but I like that it isn’t forced to happen due to some rule about how the books are organized.
Shipping
I am tired of love triangles. It is the single most identifiable trope of young adult books, particularly the ones made into movies (ie: Hunger Games, Divergent, Twilight). It just seems like a cliche way to create tension between the characters.
But having said that, a threesome would be 10 times worse. I’ll take a love triangle any day over that!
@55: I think Adolin is a lot smarter than he lets on (proven by his ability in tactics and strategy) and apart from his friendly attitude, I see little in common between him and Ron. Ron was the youngest boy sibling, always forgotten in the middle of his poor, but lively family. He had nothing special going for him save for his friendship with Harry. Adolin is the eldest child of a rich family, the protector and the Golden Boy: the one who succeeds at everything deemed important in his society. He may not be a scholar, but I do not see it as a deal breaker between him and Shallan as Adolin is plenty smart, in his own way. Not every scholar needs to be match with another scholar to be happy.
@58: Agree about Eshonai. I was too distressed to be forced to considerer every flashback characters as an automatic Radiant. I could say the same about Szeth. Now the pattern has been broken, we are free to assume both Eshonai and Szeth are not necesseraly proto-Radiants.
Shiping: Count me in within those who dislike love triangles. I believe Adolin/Kaladin blossoming friendship is too compelling to be ruined by them competing for Shallan. Besides, Shallan and Adolin are adorable together. I do think they are a good match. Jasnah and Navani sure knew what they were doing when they plotted to get these two together.
59. Gepeto
I am in agreement. Kaladin is too honorable to let his feelings for Shallan overcome his sense of duty and loyalty to Adolin. But angst? That is probable.
But Adolin will need to excel if he realistically expects Shallan to respect him.
Stormbrother @58 – re: Adolin as Edgedancer… It’s not a match-up I’d have predicted, for sure – but I’m kind of in the camp of speculating that he would become one through reviving his Blade, rather than that he would become one through a bond, and then revive the Blade. If nothing else, it would be awkward to keep carrying a Blade that screams at you until you reach full Knight-Radiant-hood… though I suppose he could simply not use it for however long it takes…
All I know is that ever since I learned what Blades really are, I’ve been hoping that Adolin – the guy who talks to his Blade before duels, and has too much respect for it to give it a random name that doesn’t really belong to it – would somehow be able to bring it back to life. This is the first hint I’ve seen that Brandon might be preparing to do that. Hope is renewed.
Re: the flashback characters – not only are they not necessarily destined to become Radiants, they are not necessarily even going to be alive any more during “their” book. Brandon has repeatedly stressed that just because Dalinar is supposed to be the flashback character for book 5, that doesn’t guarantee he won’t die in book 3. (Okay, now we don’t know for sure which book will be his, since Brandon is still in the process of figuring out which backstory fits best with the frontstory of the next book, but that was the example he used back when he was planning for Dalinar to have book 5.) That knowledge was one of the things that contributed to the possibility that Jasnah really was dead – we couldn’t say, “She must still be alive because she hasn’t had her book yet!”
Re: love triangles and threesomes – TOTALLY with you. Heh – you should have seen the comments in the beta discussions when the triangle started to look like a possibility. I think everyone was all, “No, no, no no nononononono!!!!” Some would prefer Kaladin, some Adolin, but nobody wanted to see a triangle. Not that our votes count for anything – it’s not a democracy up in here. Still, I don’t really think he’d do anything that cliche.
Gepeto @59 – I totally agree; Adolin is not stupid. He even admits as much to Shallan at one point; he’s pretending to not understand what she’s talking about, but then admits he really does get it. But Alethi men aren’t supposed to be “smart” in the ways our society considers things, so he’s probably used to playing dumb.
(It reminds me of a friend in college – straight A student, double-majoring in Physics & Mathematics, with a hefty side of music. She always had at least 2o credits, in a system where 15 was “normal” and 22 was absolute max. Pretty, blond, talented, intelligent. She got tired of the guys being scared of her because she was so smart, so she learned to pretend she was as airheaded as blondes are “supposed” to be – at least until someone got to know her well enough that it wouldn’t matter.)
Anyway, Adolin isn’t terribly skilled at wordplay, and he’s never learned to read (because men don’t), but that definitely doesn’t make him “stereotypical dumb jock” material, either. He’s very smart in his own “proper” arena – tactics, strategy, leadership, etc. Shallan isn’t smart enough in those areas to recognize how good he is, but I have hope that the two of them will learn respect for one another’s abilities.
A threesome in that form would at least be a nice divergence from the common guy-winds-up-with-multiple-awesome-girls-to-choose-from trope that I keep seeing instead. Cough Cough Rand Cough. That being said- considerably unlikely, considering this particular author. I don’t mind the triangles, if only because they are often a reality of life. It’s only when they become the only driving force behind a story that I want to throw things, and I see no chance of that happening here. I like Shallan and Adolin together, but Brandon wrote some serious depth to the Kaladin/Shallan interactions. I kind of wonder if Kaladin doesn’t wind up dead. I know a lot of people are speculating that Adolin will, but that in and of itself makes me feel like it’s unlikely. We’ve already seen a lot of Kaladin’s character arc, although there are definitely still places it can go. I just wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t make it through the first 5 books. And then all of bridge 4 can become Windrunners instead of just squires, because Shlee logic says so.
I think a small subset of the fandom might revolt if after that WoB Adolin doesn’t get to revive his blade. Not that we get any say, but that conversation with his blade was one of the most definining moments of making Adolin a real-person character with depth for me. He showed his blade more of himself and his inner thoughts than he had anyone or anything else at that point. I’m still not sure how all that would work, although I agree that I don’t see him bonding a spren before hand, and I’d honestly be content if he could just revive his spren and set it free, even if he didn’t bond it per se. Maybe he can discover how to release ALL the dead spren and then one of them will bond with him as a thank you and I’ll get my Releaser Adolin. (although, I’m pretty sure that the Radiant wearing plate that looks like Adolin’s in Dalinar’s vision is also an Edgedancer, which is interesting. I doubt both his blade and plate seeming to belong to the same order is coincidence) The thought of them trapped screaming and dead makes me as sad as it does Syl. Which always brings up thoughts of the Recreance, because I can’t fathom what they could have possibly found out to make them forcibly trap their spren. Seems like if they’d all just broken oaths they could have left their blades as mist. But maybe it doesn’t work that way once you’re fully bonded and Syl was only able to “go back” to the cognitive realm because Kaladin hadn’t fully bonded her yet.
Back to the chapter at hand, I’ve always wondered why Eshonai didn’t yell at Dalinar when they were fighting way back in book one, so they could talk before she beats him half senseless. Seems like it’d at least have been worth a shot. Then she wouldn’t have had to wait so long to set up the meeting.
And yes, Jakamav the Jerk is definitely that here, but I think it’s a very good insight into just how corrupt and power hungry Alethi culture has become while they still have themselves convinced they’re acting honorable. We’re told that a lot, but only truly shown it in a few instances. Here Jakamav is a complete and utter failure as a friend, but he tries to “make up for it” by giving Adolin some actually quite useful advice that leads to him managing to land a duel despite Sadeas’ manipulation.
@61: Yes. Very good take on Adolin. I nearly mentioned the date where he admits playing dumb at Shallan myself. He is the perfect example of someone who adapts himself perfectly well to the society he lives in. Alethi calls for men to be stupid and ignorant, he therefore pretends to be stupid and ignorant, but when push comes to shove: he shines.
Adolin may not be a scholar and he may not be one to craft theories, but he is very good at using the tools he has at ends. He learns by experience. Shallan told him the rock formation were hollow on the Shattered Plains and we was faced with a problem he could not solve: he used that knowledge to get him through. Oh wait. Correction here. Shallan told KALADIN about the rock formations while Adolin was distractly playing dumb and uninterested…. but somehow, Adolin who feign ignorance managed to grab that knowledge and make it his in a crucial and stressful moment. When presented a new fabrial, his reaction is not to ask how it works, which again people think it a sign of stupidity, but how he can use it as an advantage. In other words, he is a get down to the basic kind of guys. Scholars such as Navani have a hard time comprehending why people would not want to know about the mechanism, but she seems to fail to understand an invention with no purpose serves no other need than offering a chance for a bunch of engineers to “sand box”…
Being skilled at wordplay does not make someone smart. I believe both Shallan and Kaladin are seriously misguided by thinking it a sign of intelligence. Kaladin himself has proven to be rather poor at reading and understanding battle tactics, but people rarely held it against him because he sounds smart most of the time.
@62: I agree Adolin speaking to his Blade is a defining moment. He showed us a glimpse of his true self, the part of him he keeps hidden within, the part of him he rarely lets out because it does not correspond to the Alethi expectations.
I will be first amongst the angry mob if Adolin does not revive his Blade… I do not want him to bond some random spren, I want him to blond the spren he already seems so attached to.
Jakamav is a jerk. He likes Adolin only as long as he provides him a political advantage. Adolin the young prince of a powerful house openly complaining against his father’s politics was an asset. Adolin the young prince, now war leader, ranging himself behind his father and entering a dueling spree with the intend of winning shards is an enemy. He is not a friend and never were. Poor Adolin just learned a harsh lesson in life.
@60: I think Shallan thinks herself much smarter than she really is as proven by her akward wordplay (she thinks she is being smart whereas most people think she is being obnoxious). Intelligence has multiple facets. She is very good at solving puzzles, but has yet to prove herself good at something else. So far, each time she has needed to obtain something, she used Lightweaving (the deserters, Sebrarial are examples that comes to mind). The only reason she managed to find Urithiru when all others failed was because the key to the enigma was a huge puzzle…
I do not think Adolin needs to keep up with her: a union is a not showdown where each member needs to impress the other, but a sharing where each member learn to use each others skills to function as a unit. Adolin’s skill set complement quite well Shallan’s. However, if she is not able to see that, then she does not deserve him, sadly.
Wetlandernw @43
Well. I was about to admit to looking at the chasmfiend pupation issue from the wrong side, as it were. I still think your proposal has an elegant aura to it (I really like simple solutions to interesting problems). It also puts to rest my concern about Shallan being an unreliable observer. I wouldn’t believe that for a nanosecond.
Then I read Shlee’s comment (@47) and started to have second thoughts based on the Elhokar quote. I’m pretty certain that particular quote is what had me thinking something came out of a chrysalis in the first place. However, Elhokar may not have the science down correctly. Go figure. So let’s roll with your explanation.
BTW, at one point I was speculating that chulls might somehow play into the chasmfiend life cycle.
To be continued.
Yeah, I found it extremely interesting that the adult chulls pupate too – the notebook page has instructions on how to keep them from doing it Whatever they’re doing involves highstorms, but I’m at a loss for what the purpose would be.
The page lists stages as: Chull Larvae (Chull Cremling), First Pupation, Adult Chull, Second Pupation, Senesence.
Even more interesting that the “cremlings” commonly referred to are probably all larval forms of something or other then. I never made that connection before. “Senesence” in our language is generally used for plants, and is the point at which cells stop dividing – ie maximum age, because after that they just die without replacing themselves. It’s also just a general term used in relation to aging. So it’s almost like a weird death-stage or something? The picture of that stage looks like a chrysalis, not an adult chull. I really want to quiz Brandon about this now. And I realize we have no way of knowing if chull and chasmfiend lifecycles are even remotely similar. But I’d at least like to know if the chasmfiends making chrysalises on the Shattered Plains are generally adults or juveniles. I can’t find anything textually that’s definitive either way.
It would make sense that Chulls and Chasm Fiends would have similar life cycles. Biologically, they are not all that much different.
I know I have heard WoB that the highstorms and stormlight magically help growth. So it makes sense to have a difficult pupation stage sync with those storms.
Re: the chull/chasmfiend senescence stage
1. I think the chull lifecycle is meant to give us info about the chasmfiends because why else was it included? It’s not Shallan’s notes; it’s from some random science text, and I don’t think chull development was discussed in any other place in the book.
2. My weird theories: The picture of the senescence stage to me looks like a plant or fungus that has opened up and released spores rather than an animal. How are baby chulls made/laid/grown/gestated etc.? The plants seem to be part rock/coral and part plant. Could the non-mammal life have fungus-like reproduction methods?
3. In Chap. 55, Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin see a whitespine at the menagerie. It just lies on the ground, unmoving. Shallan comments “They don’t do well in captivity…This one probably would have gone dormant in crystal long ago, if it had been allowed. They must keep dousing it to wash away the shell.”
So the process is different and weird–I can’t quite picture how they wash away shell. Maybe it starts out soft and has to grow and harden? But the point is that it seems like a “weird death-stage” where they turn solid and die, sort of like what is implied with the chulls.
Gepeto@12 We have already seen Shallon not knowing how she is healing her badly scratched up feet. I wouldn’t call that a deadly wound. In her case though, to contrast with Kaladin and his arrow scratches, she knowingly takes in the Stormlight.
Shlee@62 good reminder about the flashback edgedancer’s plate looking like Adolin’s.
So so if elderly crustaceans turn into rocks is there a place in Roshar where the geography looks a lot like chasmfiends?
re: Shipping. Every one keeps saying that Kaladin wouldn’t betray his honor by interrupting ShalOlins’s relationship. Why doesn’t anyone mention that Shallan wouldn’t jeopardize the relationship with Adolin? She’s said several times that the betrothal and marriage are essential to her plans, and when it comes right down to it, she’s a very practical woman WOR chapter 24, p306 (HC):
I don’t think, however much she might be attracted to Kaladin, that she would ever seriously consider becoming romantically involved with him.
Re: Adolin’s proto-KR possibilities. I can’t remember if this has been discussed before, but does anyone else see his relationship with Sureblood as “spren-like”? I made a note when I was reading the passage that Sureblood seemed very “Syl like”, without words:
Re: Renarin – I kept feeling that he was so alone with what is happening to him. I agree it shows his strength of character that he just keeps dealing with the whole process without complaint, but even in the very earliest stages with the other spren/Radiant pairings, the bonding spren gave encouragement and support. There just doesn’t seem to be any of that going on for Renarin, i.e. his assumption that his reactions mean he’s a coward (he keeps saying that) makes me feel like there just isn’t any positive feedback from his spren going on here.
Also, no one seems to have mentioned this at all in the “Mapping of Renarin’s Progress” tracking, but it seems to me that the first clue to Renarin’s being involved in some kind of transformation is way back in WoK, chapter 42 (yes, the same chapter as Dalinar’s Recreance vision). Is this just me, reading too much into things? This is just after the vision ended:
I thought when I reread this chapter as I followed along years behind everyone in the WOK Storm Cellar, that Renarin seemed to have a lot to say about what Dalinar saw, almost as if he had seen some of it too, and it shook him up. This is the first time he’s been near Dalinar when he was having a vision. Renarin also seems to understand things that haven’t really been described enough:
almost like a comment suggested by his spren???
Renarin is the same age as Shallan, isn’t he? (I get confused trying to keep it straight). I’ve been wondering, as we’ve come to understand Shallan’s early involvement with Pattern, if Renarin could have been visited by a spren when he was as young as Shallan originally was, and that his “fits” and disability were/are really reflections of his bonding process being judged as ‘fits’ and disability by his family (another good reason not to mention the screaming blade). It’s just so suspicious that everyone’s so vague about what Renarin’s problems are.
I think he’s been a full-fledged KR for a while. And I think that the bonding process with the gifted Blade must have been a horrible, horrible experience for him.
Re: Chasmfiends, etc. I got nothing :-)
Oh, and this is pure speculation, but I wonder if the glasses that Renarin has been wearing have any correction in them and they are fake, and he has been using them as a ruse (as Jasnah did her fake soulcaster bracelet). If I am correct about him having been a Radiant for a while now, that is. When Renarin has to wear the Plate, he takes them off because they HAVE to be an irritant inside the helm, and then forgets to put them back on, or hasn’t had a chance to put them back on yet. He is in Plate when Adolin notices.